Hand Critique Please.

AliciaTR · February 14th, 2008, 08:33 PM

This one is bothering the hell out of me, having a hard time evaluating my other "options".

Last night live 1/2 NL game.

I play this game often, up to 5 days a week when I have the time. Loose game with players with lots of gamble, but all solid players for the most part.

I'm in Seat 3 holding KhKd.

Raise to 12 dollars as first to enter the pot.

Seat 6 and both SB and BB call, making the pot 48 dollars.

Flop: Jh Th 8D

SB and BB check to me, I fire 50 to figure out where I am at, ready to fold the Kings to serious aggresion on a draw heavy board.

Seat 6 calls, who I consider a very solid player BUT I know he would raise a pair + flush draw or a straight plus flush draw, I was confused by his flat call as he normally shows aggresion.

SB and BB fold, leaving us heads up into a 148 dollar pot.

Turn is an 8s, I figure this is a great card for me if he was slowrolling JTen for two pair, as first to act I :

Fire 100, Seat 6 goes all in for 132 total (easy call for me and left me with 90 behind) and flips Qh Tc and rivers the miracle Ten.

Should I have slowed down at any point or is this just a standard play here?

hawkfania · February 14th, 2008, 08:35 PM

oh yeah , standard

AliciaTR · February 14th, 2008, 08:35 PM

It would also be worth noting that I am well known in this game for my TAG play, but he stated he "read me on a flush draw".

Zeratul · February 14th, 2008, 08:36 PM

im more intrigued by the fact youre posting. i thought you disappeared permanently.

AliciaTR · February 14th, 2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeratul

im more intrigued by the fact youre posting. i thought you disappeared permanently.

Been back for two weeks after serious family emergency, I'm on sporadically now when I have time.

BrandonPL · February 14th, 2008, 08:47 PM

I don't like the size of the flop bet. I fire about $35. You will receive the same information without risking as much.

On the turn, if I get shoved into, I insta-call most players and stare a few others down to get a read on them and then call 90% of the time.

Unlucky river. Thats poker.

Lick496 · February 14th, 2008, 09:43 PM

I dont like the $50 "feeler" bet, thats much more than a feeler. I would bet around $30

AliciaTR · February 14th, 2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lick496

I dont like the $50 "feeler" bet, thats much more than a feeler. I would bet around $30

It wasn't intended to be a feeler, it was intended to show strength and take the pot down.

If I lead 30-35 into the pot, I give better odds for draws to stay in (especially if two were to call).

In an "unknown" game or a tournament, I would have put a feeler bet out there but I am known at this game as very TAG and the game itself plays fairly loose so this was a strong bet to indicate AA or KK and take the pot down.....I wasn't looking to get into a big pot last night simply wanted to take the pot down on every street.

Interestingly enough, I suspect had I put a feeler bet out there the villian would have shoved on me as I know his play well.....I would have been forced to a decision and likely would have folded.

BrandonPL · February 14th, 2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliciaTR

It wasn't intended to be a feeler, it was intended to show strength and take the pot down.

If I lead 30-35 into the pot, I give better odds for draws to stay in (especially if two were to call).

In an "unknown" game or a tournament, I would have put a feeler bet out there but I am known at this game as very TAG and the game itself plays fairly loose so this was a strong bet to indicate AA or KK and take the pot down.....I wasn't looking to get into a big pot last night simply wanted to take the pot down on every street.

Interestingly enough, I suspect had I put a feeler bet out there the villian would have shoved on me as I know his play well.....I would have been forced to a decision and likely would have folded.

I see where you are coming from with this, but I don't 100% agree with the logic.

Although it is a draw heavy board, do you want to force out a worse hand like top pair with your big bet?

Draws are basically stay in no matter what because its almost impossible for someone to just have a draw there. They are going to have a pair and a draw and 95% of people just aren't going to lay that down.

Personally, as your opponent, I would be more likely to raise you on a bigger flop bet with a draw type hand because it looks like you are trying to take the pot down there and it puts more money in the pot for me to try to pick up on a semi-bluff.

I think a $35 bet allows a hand like just top pair or second pair to continue which is +EV for you. It allows most people to call with a draw, and then you can make a larger bet on the turn to lay someone with a draw improper odds to continue. If you don't put him on a draw, you would even be given the chance (most likely) to pot control the turn in case he flopped a set, two pair, or a straight.

I think playing the hand that way gives you more options and is more +EV against his range of hands.

AliciaTR · February 14th, 2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandonPL

I see where you are coming from with this, but I don't 100% agree with the logic.

Although it is a draw heavy board, do you want to force out a worse hand like top pair with your big bet?

Draws are basically stay in no matter what because its almost impossible for someone to just have a draw there. They are going to have a pair and a draw and 95% of people just aren't going to lay that down.

Personally, as your opponent, I would be more likely to raise you on a bigger flop bet with a draw type hand because it looks like you are trying to take the pot down there and it puts more money in the pot for me to try to pick up on a semi-bluff.

I think a $35 bet allows a hand like just top pair or second pair to continue which is +EV for you. It allows most people to call with a draw, and then you can make a larger bet on the turn to lay someone with a draw improper odds to continue. If you don't put him on a draw, you would even be given the chance (most likely) to pot control the turn in case he flopped a set, two pair, or a straight.

I think playing the hand that way gives you more options and is more +EV against his range of hands.

Very good point, the player who I consider a strong player later told me he put me on a flush draw and wasn't paying attention to me being the opening raiser......My response to him is I wish you would have shoved then I would feel better about it.

I'm playing 1/2 these days for a living so I figure I will start posting hands I need to review later here for help from some members.

I think normally I would have bet the 35 but being out of position had me playing a bit scared.

I was totally ready to let the kings go until the board paired bottom pair negating a lot of two pair combos I could be facing.

Couldn't/wouldn't put him on a boat as he would have raised with top or middle set on a draw heavy board, I know the player well.

Ty very much for the input, I need to evaluate how I play spots like this out of position and this helps.

bestbuy02 · February 14th, 2008, 11:27 PM

I'm with everyone else. I don't like the flop bet, but i love the turn bet very much. I have to ask you tho, how much was the villan in the game for to make such a bad play knowing you have no FE to get his chips in with middle pair and a gut shot? I see desperate people doing this when they are in the game for 4+ buyins. If not then you need to note him as a LAG player instead of the solid TAG player you assumed he was and value bet him very lite.

Rmmkhanna · February 20th, 2008, 09:28 PM

VERY standard. was a horible play by him. how can you ask yourself if your play was standard when you got your money in with only 7 outs for your opponent

$$$$$$$$$$ · February 21st, 2008, 03:01 AM

TClermont · February 21st, 2008, 05:56 AM

I agree with this for the most part. If he doesnt hit the miracle river, does this hand get posted for discussion? You got the calls you say you didnt want (but anybody that likes money would) on every street and he just got lucky. The only thing I see up for discussion is the initial feeler bet. Preflop and turn are both v. standard imo.