Flop world - Trying to extract maximum value

[New Shawboy]

I've been active at the table, first 27 hands I won 5, only showing one down. Have c-bet and bet every street thus far and noone has called me.
PokerStars Game #15275008870: Tournament #77010067, $100+$9

Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/02/14 - 01:21:20 (ET)
Table '77010067 14' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: ragingquads_ (5895 in chips)
Seat 2: McSwig (2940 in chips)
Seat 3: jtan8 (2810 in chips)
Seat 4: bp12357 (2625 in chips)
Seat 5: danxxx1 (3560 in chips)
Seat 6: New Shawboy (3865 in chips)
Seat 7: remen (2645 in chips)
Seat 8: JLizard (2895 in chips)
Seat 9: scgolfer (2705 in chips)
ragingquads_: posts small blind 15
McSwig: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to New Shawboy [Js 9s]
danxxx1 said, "sweet"
jtan8: calls 30
bp12357: folds
danxxx1: folds
New Shawboy: raises 60 to 90
remen: folds
JLizard: folds
scgolfer: folds
ragingquads_: folds
McSwig: folds
jtan8: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Td 7h 8s]
jtan8: checks
New Shawboy: checks
*** TURN *** [Td 7h 8s] [6s]
jtan8: checks
New Shawboy: bets 60
jtan8: raises 150 to 210
New Shawboy: raises 540 to 750
jtan8: calls 540
*** RIVER *** [Td 7h 8s 6s] [Ah]
jtan8: bets 270
New Shawboy: raises 2755 to 3025 and is all-in
jtan8: folds
New Shawboy collected 2265 from pot
New Shawboy: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2265 | Rake 0
Board [Td 7h 8s 6s Ah]
Seat 1: ragingquads_ (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: McSwig (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: jtan8 folded on the River
Seat 4: bp12357 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: danxxx1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: New Shawboy collected (2265)
Seat 7: remen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: JLizard folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: scgolfer (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Ok, first time I chose not to c-bet in this tourny and betting small on turn, then the huge reraise line is likely to get paid off by a weaker player. River is a bad card and he makes a reall small blocking bet. He could be trying to induce my bluff shove, in which case I get another 1700.

Should I raise less trying to induce HIM to shove? Meh, I don't really like that cause if he doesn't have anything he has got to think I'm calling him with even an ace unless this guy is REALLY bad......River is obv a bad card for me, but would anyone raise less for value on river?

Just interested in hearing some thoughts. No way this guy has a 9, but I thought I did a good job of building a big pot with a big hand.

[terrellk11]

To me, it looks like the turn reraise scared him and he through a blocking bet out there to get to see a cheap showdown. I like the play on the turn but think the river shove is too much.

If you raise to 3x, he can call with a weak hand thinking you're trying to steal it away from him, he can shove over you thinking he has fold equity, or if he has a decent enough hand (two pair or set) he may shove for "value." By shoving, you only get money if he has a hand strong enough for him to put his life on the line.

[New Shawboy]

Originally Posted by terrellk11

To me, it looks like the turn reraise scared him and he through a blocking bet out there to get to see a cheap showdown. I like the play on the turn but think the river shove is too much.

If you raise to 3x, he can call with a weak hand thinking you're trying to steal it away from him, he can shove over you thinking he has fold equity, or if he has a decent enough hand (two pair or set) he may shove for "value." By shoving, you only get money if he has a hand strong enough for him to put his life on the line.

My call made the pot @ 2200. He had 1700 left. No way he thinks he has fold equity if I raise. He bet 270....after putting 1K in chips into the pot there are very few hands IMO that he is going to call another, say 600 that he won't call 1700 more with, seeing as how he would be crippled withh 1K in chips if he called and lost.

Also, I think that the smaller raise screams 'call me' whereas the shove is more likely to be interpreted as a bluff from a weaker player (This guy is not very good at all).

[cardsfan04]

Anybody bet flop here? I don't always, but if I'm real active at a table, I might put a small CBet out hoping they think I feel I have to bet something, but don't want to bet a lot.

Turn, I like big RR. Smallish raise would be terrible. Flatting is ok, but I like your raise.

River, I don't like a shove because he has to have a 9 to call it and he might jam on your raise anyway. I think a small RR to about 660 would work well.

[terrellk11]

Originally Posted by New Shawboy

My call made the pot @ 2200. He had 1700 left. No way he thinks he has fold equity if I raise. He bet 270....after putting 1K in chips into the pot there are very few hands IMO that he is going to call another, say 600 that he won't call 1700 more with, seeing as how he would be crippled withh 1K in chips if he called and lost.

Also, I think that the smaller raise screams 'call me' whereas the shove is more likely to be interpreted as a bluff from a weaker player (This guy is not very good at all).

I'd agree with you if the ace didn't hit the river here. That's a scare card for most of the hands he could have been playing to this point (KK, QQ, JJ, KT, QT, JT, T9, etc.). If that river is a 2, I love the shove for exactly the reasons you give. But most weaker players are afraid when an ace hits and your shove scares that type of player away on that card.

[New Shawboy]

I bet flop every single time.....figured someone bad would put me on air if I checked behind on a T high flop. OBV I would rather a deuce than a 6 come off, though.

This guy was limping and calling and check/folding postflop.....he was really terrible

[New Shawboy]

Originally Posted by terrellk11

I'd agree with you if the ace didn't hit the river here. That's a scare card for most of the hands he could have been playing to this point (KK, QQ, JJ, KT, QT, JT, T9, etc.). If that river is a 2, I love the shove for exactly the reasons you give. But most weaker players are afraid when an ace hits and your shove scares that type of player away on that card.

Good point. I hated that card. I guess I played the hand correctly (given the competition) until the river.

[bazooka87]

I was gonna say raise more preflop but...

Originally Posted by New Shawboy

This guy was limping and calling and check/folding postflop.....he was really terrible

makes it okay I suppose.
I probably bet the flop as well with the info you've given.

However, I don't think a river shove is going to be interpreted as a bluff when you 3bet so strong on the turn. It's a pretty tough spot tbh, in the moment I'd probably shove as well but looking at it I'd probably raise small as well. I don't see you getting paid off either way, but reraising smaller is more likely to work

[chimp__greg]

I alwayyyyssss bet flop, it just gives them such a better chance to stack off when there are 3 different places you can bet and get him to call or raises, instead of being limited to just the turn and the river.

It builds a bigger spot to help him get his chips in behind.

turn looks good but I usually raise to like 1k-1200 on river.

[herschelw]

Originally Posted by chimp__greg

I alwayyyyssss bet flop, it just gives them such a better chance to stack off when there are 3 different places you can bet and get him to call or raises, instead of being limited to just the turn and the river.

+1(note I removed the portion of Greg's quote that didnt directly express my sentiments.


As far as the river goes if you think he is blocker betting then you really need to raise a callable amount. Most people who are blocker betting in tournament play are doing so because they dont want to fold when they prob should(note:the play is much more effective in cash game play). If someone blocker bets they will almost never call a shove. The A makes it even less likely he will call a shove but frankly the blocker bet already tells you that. I probably bet slightly larger than a min raise to ensure a call.


Also, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE bet the flop!!!!! If you've been Cbetting the whole time use that to your advantage and do it with made hands too because at some point someone will get tired of it and give you thier stack.

[sizzlinbetta]

yea i just lead out like i had qk here people try to think of a million ways to disguise their hands and the fact of the matter is betting always does taht

[etched Chaos]

Bet flop, a check arouses suspicion if you've been actively betting every street upto this point.