9 man experts

nalai550 · February 21st, 2008, 11:22 PM

PokerStars Game #: Tournament #, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/02/21 - 18:00:56 (ET)
Table '78217003 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: FLSTC08 (2400 in chips)
Seat 2: nalai550 (1790 in chips)
Seat 5: sandy lynne7 (4530 in chips)
Seat 7: BigBaller069 (1855 in chips)
Seat 9: makromücke (2925 in chips)
BigBaller069: posts small blind 75
makromücke: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nalai550 [5s 5h]
FLSTC08: folds
nalai550

the guy in the BB is really loose. I mean seriously loose.
i'm tight, no one has seen my hands, I won a few pots without showing my hand.

what is the best play here considering how close we are to cashing? limp? push? fold? standard raise and leave myself less than 10 BB behind?

thanks

aguttorm · February 21st, 2008, 11:38 PM

I would probably shove, I would never just 3x raise. Every once in awhile I might fold depending on the situation, my image, etc.

But normally I would shove, especially if this is a turbo and the blind are increasing fast anyway.

nalai550 · February 21st, 2008, 11:50 PM

not a turbo. just a $11 standard 9 man on stars.

shawnie2dope · February 22nd, 2008, 12:46 AM

just limp. if you miss just check fold.

rmthawk64 · February 22nd, 2008, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnie2dope

just limp. if you miss just check fold.

This is by far the worst option.

I shove 80% of the time.

Fold 15% of the time.

3x 5% of the time

Limp 0% of the time

What I'm trying to say is shoving is the best option. If it was a turbo it would be shove 100% of the time. (which it should be here)

You don't want to play postflop with this hand. Shove and take blinds. If you shove into a race, GL. If you shove into a bigger PP, UL.

gogzy · February 22nd, 2008, 12:57 AM

i shove there
and on the rare occasion i 3x bet i dont fold to a repush

shawnie2dope · February 22nd, 2008, 01:14 AM

damn you guys are aggressive. why gamble here? it's not a mulit so no need to double up. maybe raise 3x and take the blinds, im not putting all my chips in with 5s. once your ITM thats a great play imo just not here.

IMO

andremcosta · February 22nd, 2008, 04:53 AM

Just to let you know, according to ICM this is a fold. The problem here is that the loose boy in the BB has you covered. When you are pushing with 2 man with greater stacks in front of you, you equity according to icm falls a lot, since you are risking to bust.

Again, considering icm, you are only profiting here if both the button and SB are VERY tight, calling with less than 5%, since you already defined the BB as very loose.

I would prob fold this because you has a 12bb stack. I think you need to be shorter to be profitable here.

andremcosta · February 22nd, 2008, 04:54 AM

And again, limping is terrible here.

aguttorm · February 22nd, 2008, 05:29 AM

i think not shoving is bad....i think 3x is absolutely horrible...flat calling is worse than 3x...

shoving>folding>limping

EDIT: btw i don't care what sng tools says about push/fold whatever....i dont use that crap its not accurate, ask anyone that plays SNGs enough

CIA_Bodyguard · February 22nd, 2008, 10:37 AM

I would fold because this is a non-turbo, if this was a turbo easy push...

egannit · February 22nd, 2008, 11:55 AM

there's only 2 options here, as limping in this shorthand config
would be a sinner:

1/ raise 2.5 to 3 times
2/ shove

personnaly I'll take the 1st option, as the BB is a very loose guy.
He could call ya with a wide range of hand, and probably overcards
which will lead ya to a coin flip if you did shove.

The steal raise has a big advantage, using your position and a probable
scary card on the flop. The BB,very loose, could call your raise preflop with a wide range and could miss his flop, allowing you to take the pot. In case he hits, he would let you know then you have an easy fold.

Acid Hound · February 22nd, 2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnie2dope

damn you guys are aggressive. why gamble here? it's not a mulit so no need to double up. maybe raise 3x and take the blinds, im not putting all my chips in with 5s. once your ITM thats a great play imo just not here.

IMO

Limping is terrible. Raise folding is terrible b/c are you calling a shove?? No. Then why not 3x with 26? Your hand becomes a bluff when u raise with the intention of folding. 7.5:1 to make a set so your not gonna be able to cbet much without shoving post. Playing this any other way than shoving or folding is awful.

That said I actually have trouble with this spot a bit b/c 55 is so weak I hate shoving ~11-12 BB's with it. Im strictly a <10BB's shove monkey... B/c the BB is so loose, I will fold here like 30% of the time b/c its a non turbo. If he is really loose and a turbo, mayb like 10-15% fold.

I just hate shoving a station when I can afford to go through the blinds if necessary and then shove 4 high on the button when the station is UTG and hopefully out of the hand.

Actually considering you will have a button without the station in the blinds, I might fold a bit more often... It would depend on my read

Acid Hound · February 22nd, 2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egannit

there's only 2 options here, as limping in this shorthand config
would be a sinner:

1/ raise 2.5 to 3 times
2/ shove

personnaly I'll take the 1st option, as the BB is a very loose guy.
He could call ya with a wide range of hand, and probably overcards
which will lead ya to a coin flip if you did shove.

The steal raise has a big advantage, using your position and a probable
scary card on the flop. The BB,very loose, could call your raise preflop with a wide range and could miss his flop, allowing you to take the pot. In case he hits, he would let you know then you have an easy fold.

ok so you 3x your 12 BB stack, leaving 9 behind, flop comes 26J rainbow (prob one of the best non set flops you'l get) and he checks. 6.5 BB's in there you bet out 4BB's leaving 5BB's and your gonna fold to his c/r??? I mean what is your plan??? You are very rarely gonna have a flop you like. Raising is almost worse than limping IMO. Almost...

Why isn't folding an option?? You can go through the blinds if necessary and still have FE with 10 BB's

mutigers5591 · February 22nd, 2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andremcosta

Just to let you know, according to ICM this is a fold. The problem here is that the loose boy in the BB has you covered. When you are pushing with 2 man with greater stacks in front of you, you equity according to icm falls a lot, since you are risking to bust.

Again, considering icm, you are only profiting here if both the button and SB are VERY tight, calling with less than 5%, since you already defined the BB as very loose.

I would prob fold this because you has a 12bb stack. I think you need to be shorter to be profitable here.

curious if you could show us the math behind it somehow so we know if there was a mistake in the input of the problem or not ....when reading the op i thought it was a shove but i dont know icm very well but its a well known fact that almost all 9 men grinders who 12 table these fora living or for part-time job etc use icm almost exclusively....its only accurate if you put the problem in right but saying the math is wrong is really lolaments

egannit · February 22nd, 2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid Hound

ok so you 3x your 12 BB stack, leaving 9 behind, flop comes 26J rainbow (prob one of the best non set flops you'l get) and he checks. 6.5 BB's in there you bet out 4BB's leaving 5BB's and your gonna fold to his c/r??? I mean what is your plan??? You are very rarely gonna have a flop you like. Raising is almost worse than limping IMO. Almost...

Why isn't folding an option?? You can go through the blinds if necessary and still have FE with 10 BB's

My plan was to use the preflop FE + post flop FE combined using a 3x raise, with good positionnal advantage rather than use a preflop FE by shoving which will really show weakness. Because shoving would definitly
means a steal attempt, and will show that you don't want a call.
And after the flop, I would definitely shove to take the pot, if there's a check out front. In short, it's a go and go tactic.

Poker 1 ab · February 22nd, 2008, 01:47 PM

Personally, I fold. If you even consider limping, you are preparing for the re-raise all-in against Mr. Loose Aggressive.

I have two goals, first make the money, then win it. Shoving here is less than a 50/50 for you in all likely hood. You're toast with the over pair, you're a coin flip with 2 overs. I'd rather push with k10, than risk being called with a small pair for all my chips. There's time here to see a better risk reward hand.

Poker 1 ab · February 22nd, 2008, 01:49 PM

The one positive think about what you say is the trend truly seems to be that short stacks make 50% raises with monster hands.

The problem is, most players are too dumb on PS to realize that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by egannit

My plan was to use the preflop FE + post flop FE combined using a 3x raise, with good positionnal advantage rather than use a preflop FE by shoving which will really show weakness. Because shoving would definitly
means a steal attempt, and will show that you don't want a call.
And after the flop, I would definitely shove to take the pot, if there's a check out front. In short, it's a go and go tactic.

The_None · February 22nd, 2008, 03:04 PM

It depends, is the BB that is seriously loose, loose in terms of raising or loose in terms of calling? also has the rest of the table been tight or loose? If the BB has a real loose calling range and the rest of the table is tight enough that you can steal from them, I would say lay it down, but the rest of the time shove and hope for folds...b/c with your tight image you won't be getting a call where you are in great shape most of the time.

I also don't mind 3x it here, as long as you know you should be shoving around 75% of flops otherwise push/fold depending of factors above.

Acid Hound · February 22nd, 2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_None

It depends, is the BB that is seriously loose, loose in terms of raising or loose in terms of calling? also has the rest of the table been tight or loose? If the BB has a real loose calling range and the rest of the table is tight enough that you can steal from them, I would say lay it down, but the rest of the time shove and hope for folds...b/c with your tight image you won't be getting a call where you are in great shape most of the time.

I also don't mind 3x it here, as long as you know you should be shoving around 75% of flops otherwise push/fold depending of factors above.

A good player will not give you that opportunity. They will bet out and in the end you will probably CALL off your chips which is just dire. If the BB is loose you can assume he is calling like 50% of the time because loose players always kinda say, lets see a flop or lets see one more card. You are drawing him in and stations love to see another card. This is bad in this situation, you want to apply as much pressure as poss or stay out of the way. I think its something along the lines of shoving=folding>>>>>>>>>>>>>3x>limping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker 1 ab

The one positive think about what you say is the trend truly seems to be that short stacks make 50% raises with monster hands.

The problem is, most players are too dumb on PS to realize that.

I don play PS and I usually play $24 but I do open shove aces sometimes in spots like these... It depends on your opposition and you should assume your opposition is stupid unless they have shown you otherwise. Thus, dont get tricky