PLO/8 question

nsinger · February 23rd, 2008, 04:30 AM

I think the biggest leak in my plo/8 game is in multiway pots w/ marginal draws at both the low and high. Against two loose players (60% vpip or so) what do you do on this flop?

PokerStars Game #15482842239: Tournament #78372067, $35+$3 Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/02/22 - 23:26:26 (ET)
Table '78372067 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Tru27 (1769 in chips)
Seat 2: nsinger (1530 in chips)
Seat 3: amuth (2525 in chips)
Seat 5: heater2825 (3191 in chips)
Seat 7: deggars (2868 in chips)
Seat 8: BlkKnight2 (1617 in chips)
Tru27: posts small blind 75
nsinger: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nsinger [Ac 5c Jd 4d]
amuth: folds
heater2825: calls 150
deggars: folds
BlkKnight2: calls 150
Tru27: folds
nsinger: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kh Ad 7s]
nsinger: ??

KhaosTheory · February 23rd, 2008, 06:12 AM

I may lead out here for 200-300, and see what they do. I really don't see either of them raising this flop, they both limped, and because they're loose, I wouldn't expect give them credit for something like 23 with a set of 7s. They probably have a hand similar to yours, a pair and a marginal lo draw. But, to the aggressor go the spoils.

doctavius · February 23rd, 2008, 08:42 AM

i always check flops like this.......first you dont have position which is a big disadvantage throught the hand. i would try to keep the pot small. no reason to stack off with a so so low and high.

i see you dont have a lot of chips. what i like to do in spots like this is check raise and attempt to get heads up. against 2 players your hand may or may not hold up. heads up you will most likely hold for at least half and maybe draw out to scoop.

i cant think of anything else helpful.

doctavius · February 23rd, 2008, 08:45 AM

i just realized it was a SNG.....i check raise more often in a MTT.....SNG i would check call.

threeouts · February 23rd, 2008, 12:19 PM

Sorry I'm check folding almost 90% of the time here AA J kicker back door non nut diamonds, 45 low draw and 2 runner straight draws w/ runner house draws.... not worth the 150 chips rather keep those for some FE later or just for more chips to double later.........make the 7 a 2 or 3 and things are different....

mizzo5678 · February 23rd, 2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threeouts

Sorry I'm check folding almost 90% of the time here AA J kicker back door non nut diamonds, 45 low draw and 2 runner straight draws w/ runner house draws.... not worth the 150 chips rather keep those for some FE later or just for more chips to double later.........make the 7 a 2 or 3 and things are different....

I agree with this, I would check fold and save my chips for a better situation.

UWjoe · February 23rd, 2008, 04:04 PM

yep, 2nd best hands arent gona get you anywhere in this game

weak hi and weak low potential is a really good way to lose both the hi and low

nsinger · February 23rd, 2008, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threeouts

Sorry I'm check folding almost 90% of the time here AA J kicker back door non nut diamonds, 45 low draw and 2 runner straight draws w/ runner house draws.... not worth the 150 chips rather keep those for some FE later or just for more chips to double later.........make the 7 a 2 or 3 and things are different....

I think this is certainly a valid argument, but it would be tough to get scooped if I bet a md amount on the flop and one of the players folds right? I think I'm coming at them from more of an mtt mindset though where I'm looking to build chips and survival is a bit less important than in a sng.

doctavius · February 23rd, 2008, 09:24 PM

check folding is super weak imo

AJB444 · February 24th, 2008, 06:49 AM

In my world...admittedly I am a sick, clueless donk ;-))

but

this is an AUTO check-fold.

You cannot lead because YOU HAVE NOTHING

You cannot call because you have NO HAND AND NO DRAW

Limpers that have ANY clue whatsoever are limping with Axyz where x is low, y is high and z is anything. Which hand can you beat right now? Which draw can you beat? Right....none and none...

There is NO option other than check-fold when you still have 1380 (9+ blinds) in front of you. Furthermore....I CHECK this hand even if I am on the button....yes....on the button...this hand is REAL weak.

AJ

Sidnoobis · February 24th, 2008, 09:05 AM

AJ, you seem to basically be the PLO8 pimp. Where should I go to learn more about it / what should I read? I've been wanting to up my skills in both omaha variants, both FL and PL. Anything you'd recommend?

AJB444 · February 24th, 2008, 09:16 AM

Honestly Sid I have never read a single thing on PLO8. I entered a SNG completely by accident and learned the game myself from there.

I understand Lou Krieger has a PLO8 book that people say is good...but I have never read anything on the game myself. I suppose I should at some point just to see if I see the game the same way they do lol

AJ

MrDurden · February 24th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJB444

In my world...admittedly I am a sick, clueless donk ;-))

but

this is an AUTO check-fold.

You cannot lead because YOU HAVE NOTHING

You cannot call because you have NO HAND AND NO DRAW

Limpers that have ANY clue whatsoever are limping with Axyz where x is low, y is high and z is anything. Which hand can you beat right now? Which draw can you beat? Right....none and none...

There is NO option other than check-fold when you still have 1380 (9+ blinds) in front of you. Furthermore....I CHECK this hand even if I am on the button....yes....on the button...this hand is REAL weak.

AJ

+100000000000231

MrDurden · February 24th, 2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidnoobis

AJ, you seem to basically be the PLO8 pimp. Where should I go to learn more about it / what should I read? I've been wanting to up my skills in both omaha variants, both FL and PL. Anything you'd recommend?

Here is how i taught my girlfriend to play 'better' in a couple minutes.

Play A2xx. Never EVER raise preflop (unless its late in the game and it is to steal blinds)<<this comes with practice cant teach it i tried>> Play runs 2345 or J1098 etc....Never EVER draw unless you are drawing to the stone cold nuts....and never draw two pair to fullhouses for gods sake. Always keep as many people in the pot as possible....No need to isolate or be tricky your hand will play itself at lower limits. You play the hand not the man at this game in low limits. Hands like KJ107 are crap they look big but are absolute garbage. Same goes for hands like A457.....toss this **** all day long and reap the rewards....there is more but im tired....GLGLGL just keep practicing

nsinger · February 24th, 2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrDurden

Here is how i taught my girlfriend to play 'better' in a couple minutes.

Play A2xx. Never EVER raise preflop (unless its late in the game and it is to steal blinds)<<this comes with practice cant teach it i tried>> Play runs 2345 or J1098 etc....Never EVER draw unless you are drawing to the stone cold nuts....and never draw two pair to fullhouses for gods sake. Always keep as many people in the pot as possible....No need to isolate or be tricky your hand will play itself at lower limits. You play the hand not the man at this game in low limits. Hands like KJ107 are crap they look big but are absolute garbage. Same goes for hands like A457.....toss this **** all day long and reap the rewards....there is more but im tired....GLGLGL just keep practicing

Admittedly you have more experience in the game than I do, but I disagree with this approach almost completely. Well, that's too strong, I think it's just fine for the first hour of an mtt and the first section of a sng when all the bad players give all their money to the tight players. But usually halfway through there are a couple donks and a whole bunch of people playing the way you suggest. These people never bluff and let me steal their blinds every round and anytime they raise I can put them on either AAxx or A2xx and play accordingly.

Basically my strategy is to raise any playable hand (and I'm using a loose definition of playable) if I'm not in early position and generally mix it up and win tons of pots. There are more dead money pots in this game than in any other type of poker I've ever played. If I raise preflop and a tight player smooth calls me, I can put that player on A2xx pretty much automatically because they would have reraised me preflop w/ aaxx and then I get to win every high only flop and if there are two low cards I'm in control and can blast the turn if it bricks and get a fold a lot of the time. This results in me losing more showdowns than I win but winning tons of pots without showdowns. The goal of the game is to scoop, but winning a medium size pot without a showdown is just as good as scooping a medium size pot.

I used to play the way you suggest and I was always a moderate winner, but since I had a eureka moment and started playing kind of maniacally I've won waaaaaaaaay more than I used to and just crushed plo/8 tourneys.

nsinger · February 24th, 2008, 11:50 PM

The other thing that tends to happen as a result of me raising pre a lot of the time is that I get into a lot of multiway raised pots where I bet the with a marginal high/marginal low and get one of the players to fold and end up splitting the dead money with some junky hand like a46J single suited. I tend to be able to chip up pretty well in this fashion just by gaining a couple bb here and a couple bb there.

AJB444 · February 24th, 2008, 11:58 PM

I agree with singer on this point...in a 9-man SNG there is a "light-switch" concept I teach...basically it means play ULTRA tight until a certain point....then "turn on the light switch" and in one hand go from ultratight to maniacal...

Once the blinds reach the point to where fold equity exists...you MUST go from the most passive to the most aggressive in one hand. The question that has to be answered is WHEN is fold equity achieved...once it is....go crazy

AJ

MrDurden · February 25th, 2008, 01:20 AM

i agree with both of you there...i was just talking about early as i said. never raise until its time to steal. The blinds are still fairly small in the above hand. I am playing pots here but im not a maniac yet